The Traditional Trinity - vs - The Biblical Godhead
How
many heads does God have?
Col 2:10:"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality
and power"!
The Bible only mentions the Godhead singular not Godheads plural. Why would this be?
Following is an exposition of the Bible believer in dialogue with the religionist/nominalist (okay - trinitarian) who thinks he is a Bible believer due to tradition and not due to rightly dividing the word of truth. The religionist/nominalist begins this exchange with this statement:
So you say that the Godhead is Christ. How can the Godhead be Christ when Christ is Jesus, being the Son of God and only a part of the Godhead as the second person out of the three?
Okay, I'll answer your question if you answer me this one: How can Christ have (be) the fulness of the Godhead (as Col. 2:9 says) if he is only confined to one third of the Godhead as the second person? You see you have a real problem when you agree with Christendom's concept that the Godhead is a heavenly triangle/substance thing, made up of three separate people. According to you these three separate 'entities' dwelling as 'one' and 'the same', are 'one God', yet co-eternal keeping the same substance as each other (what ever that means), the same equality, as well as keeping their eternal separate 'identities' as an individual 'being' at the same time.
This does not sound very respectful towards our Lord!
Depends of which image or person you are really serving and beholding. Or whether the likes of James White's book "The Forgotten Trinity" causes you to puke or go all gogo gaga over. The crux of the matter is ... You say this person/entity is God (God the Son), just like the first and other person/entity is also God (God the Father) and the third and equal other person/entity is also God (God the Spirit), while at the same time they are all God combined as one. Meaning, it is right both ways in saying God is one person or God is three persons. Right!? Or even, "the three divine Persons" (look up "The Forgotten Trinity"). As long as you don't say this Person is three Gods, even though this Person (the person of God) can also be three individual and distinct persons. Moreover ... "the three divine Persons". Or broken down:
One Person (God) is also three (distinct and different) persons (God)!
Or ...
The true and only one God can be either three persons or one Person, but never three Gods ("three divine Persons" are okay, apparently), even though each person equates as God or the three persons combined together, equates as God!
Yes! I know it is complex and hard to grasp but this is a divine mystery!
The only illustration and line fitting to me I can think of at present is in story "the Three Musketeers" ... "all for one and one for all!" Understanding, I am not trying to be flippant towards the Lord God our Creator and Saviour in any way, but only false doctrine!
Does this not mean there are three Beings, each with the title of God together, but never as the title as God as an individual ... even though they can each be called God as an individual, somehow equating to God as three? Bearing in mind (and this is the best illustration I can think of for logic sake) "the Three Musketeers" were always three, but could never be solely, one individual person/personality together, even though they could function as one together.
In other words, to spell it out in clearer speech and to categorize what you believe:
Each person in the Godhead can be titled God ... God the Father (the 1st Person), God the Son (the 2nd other Person), and God the Holy Spirit (the 3rd other Person). That's 1+1+1 = THREE! Simple arithmetic ... yes! With each called God! Right?
However, though each separate person is titled God they cannot be termed THREE Gods for some reason! THREE divine Persons! Yes, but not Gods! THREE persons (as God), THREE entities (as God), THREE beings (as God), THREE individuals (as God), THREE distinct personalities (as God) ... yes! But NEVER THREE Gods!
Can you work that one out?
No one can! The Trinity can't be explained! As I say, the Godhead is a mystery!
Oh yeah! Your theology and tradition may dictate this, but it is contrary to scripture nevertheless. This is what is written ... Romans 1: 21-22:
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (thatz us!), even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (the disbelievers, skeptics and brushover artists) are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God (they glorified the one "God alone" as more than one and not alone)".
You see, this verse claims "when they new God" (even his eternal power and Godhead) "they glorified him not as God. The Godhead got very distorted and complicated somehow. This is certainly not rocket science, nor philological complexity, nor something that is hidden for all time. Apart from the special, privileged, enlightened "initiated"! Is it? Nor is it an open-ended God, with interpretation dependant on your theology or tradition.
Furthermore, whattabout this one; which wipes out your "unexplained" theory in one fell swoop ... Eph. 3: 3-6:
"How that by revelation he made known unto me (a 'born again' believer) the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit".
Did you know the biblical phrase above "made known" is mentioned 20 times throughout the whole Bible? "Made known"! God will never do this unless He reveals Himself to those who truly seek Him in all humility (those who admit they are wrong while God is aways right). After all, a mystery in scripture is only a mystery to the unbelieving world (not a puzzle or an unexplained phenomena, like the Trinity doctrine), but is revealed unto those in Him ... 1 Cor. 10: 9-10:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."
This means "the deep things of God" are not out of our reach if we are prepared to seek Him with our whole heart and give up our "justified" theory, "approved" opinion or what the religious experts have convinced us to believe, because they would NEVER deceive us (would they?). No, the deep things of God are not a mystery once He reveals them unto us, His remnant, which He has promised to do.
Revelation is the name of the game! Not second-hand information, or flogged tradition, dressed up to look Biblical coz the "trusted" Reformers, the "highly educated", or the religious mainstream says it to be so. Meaning, there is no puzzle or unexplained cryptic hidden messages with God. Only the mystery hidden from fallen man throughout the ages, until the time was ready for God to make it known to those who would call out to Him, love Him, and obey Him. Amos 3:7 does not say this in vain ...
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
If the Trinity is a secret or mystery, or has an unfathomable meaning, or a cryptic hidden message that can never be explained, as you and your cronies endorse, then it simply can never be revealed or made known? I suggest you seek out the God who Daniel 2:47 says is ... "a revealer of secrets"!
I never said "can't be revealed" but "can't be explained"! There is a difference!
Then define it please?
Okay ... "Three separate people all called God individually, but never as three Gods, but God as one!"
This is double-de-dutch talk to me my friend! Religious mumbo jumbo at best! Two-forked-tongue stuff! Somehow we are NEVER to say "They" (the Three divine Persons) are three Gods (as admitted by your peers and depicted in Christendom's art and relics, never to be renounced by Evangelical Protestantism or the "Christian" mainstream). Your doctrine is stating ... just say they are God when and only when, together, functioning as this so-called Godhead, that is also officially known as (not scripturally known as), and called the Trinity.
Here is another major problem (which one can never get his head around, if you are willing to question the unquestionable, and be labelled "cultist", or "dissenter", or "division maker") if you really want to rightly divide the word (coz according to Christendom, denying the Holy Trinity is one of the proofs you are a cultist) and take the word for what it is. That is, use scripture to measure and balance scripture ... not just isolate one verse to prove a point.
What do you mean by that?
Okay, according to you (because of your religious upbringing, or indoctrination into a denomination) ... the Godhead consists of three eternal, separate, yet equal and unwavering in substance, co-being, existing inside an eternal triangle in heaven. Right?
Urrrr ... Yes! Urrrr ... No, not really! The Godhead is the correct term!
Okay ... here is the universal points of belief when it comes to "the Holy Trinity" doctrine:
Of course!
Then you tell me 'the second part' of this spiritual equilateral triangle in heaven is sent to earth as the Son. Yes, He came as the Son! As according to your teaching, He is already a son (or the Son) because you say He has already been a son, is a son, and will always be a son ... the eternal Son of God!
Therefore, if Jesus is really the second person, eternally as the Son (before being begotten or born a man) then pray tell me, how can there still be three separate and equal beings/persons/people/individuals, of equal eternal substance, when there is now only two ... God the Father and God the Holy Spirit residing in heaven? That's because (according to your teaching) 'God the Son' has now become a manchild, who will soon mature past being a manchild (the manchild) into a man! Therefore, how can they (the three in heaven) be co-inseparable if one calls out as a man dying nailed to a tree to His "Superior" in Heaven, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," if this was true? Where can good'ole common sense come out of this?
Because Jesus is still in the Godhead in Spirit!
You mean there is now two Spirits making up God? ... Jesus the Spirit as well as God the Holy Spirit?
No, they are one and the same!
One and the same eh! Can't be I'm afraid! As according to your doctrine, they are two separate people (persons) and one of these people has just left heaven (His abiding place with the other two members of the Godhead) and come to earth as a man. I think we both agree and know very well that Jesus is the eternal Word which become flesh (which I say still contradicts the Trinity and does not mean Son). Therefore, how can this eternal Son you keep mentioning, now be still the same substance, equally and eternally as the other two, if this substance has now become flesh and blood? Meaning, the Son has now left heaven to come to earth, leaving this Godhead only occupied with two other divine beings (a Godhead consisting of only Two divine persons now, by the way)? Remembering also, that as the Son, He becomes cut-off and experiences a separation through death from the other two members you insist exist. Meaning, there is only now two divine persons living or existing at this stage? Basically now saying ... all three are not co eternal and eternally equal! Eternally equal ... that iz!!
The Son simply can't be of the same substance. Especially when He is executed as a flesh and blood man and is now a temporary dead and cut-off substance! Bearing in mind, He has been a flesh and blood substance for 33 years prior, born of a woman and born of sinful flesh, as the scriptures say. Remember, the other two members of the so-called Godhead have never experienced this change or temporary condition!
Therefore, they (the eternal three) simply can't be coequal eternally in SUBSTANCE, can they? Especially when God the Father is confined to heaven and God the Holy Spirit (the third in rank in this so-called Godhead) can come and go as the wind and be omnipresent, while God the Son can come to earth being restricted as a man for 33 years, separated from the Godhead and being temporally separated as "cut-off out of the land of the living" for three days and three nights! Meaning, if the eternal Trinity does happen to exist, it ceased to exist for either 33 years at best, or three days at worst, cancelling out the Trinity being eternal or always equally of the same substance. Just can't be! You only need a small time gap frame of just one of the three (when He is cut-off from the other Two) t o rule out being always equally eternal! Or always equally and eternally, one is substance. Flesh and blood is not equally and eternally one in substance with spirit, which God is!
They can be in Spirit!
As I said, they simply can't be, as one has left His place in heaven, become lower than the angels, and is made FLESH and BLOOD, not Spirit. If the Spirit of God is a different person than Jesus, then Jesus is not the same coequally and eternally in substance as the third member of this Triune "Godhead" but a different individual on earth. Also, rank or position of power (as second in charge or order) cancels out equality in this case, does it not? What does scripture say and how can you refute this?:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
There's a major contradiction in your theology here, as elsewhere as I will explain! Besides, and while we have reached this point ... has not this second person you refer to, only now become a son, or the Son? Is not it a principle in scripture that a son can only be a son after being conceived? When did Jesus become a Son? It is clear from scripture that there was a day when He did. This was prophesied in the OT and fulfilled in the NT, ruling out Jesus always being a Son, and therefore destroying the tradition that Jesus was a Son prior to being begotten, conceived and born. Here's the OT prediction (meaning the Son was to come, not always was) ... Psalms 2:7:
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
"Thou art my Son; (because) this day have I begotten thee"! As Jesus was begotten, no doubt on this day He become the Son. Fulfilled in the NT ... Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, as well as Hebrews 5:5 (three biblical witnesses/accounts confirming the truth):
"Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."
Why His Son? Because He was begotten on that day! There had to be a day. Followed by this statement which could now be made a reality:
"I will (future tense) be to him a Father, and he shall (future tense) be to me a Son?"
This never happened before. Meaning, Jesus could not have been a Son to the Father before, as God could not be called Father before. The NT always spoke of "the promise of the Father". Why? Because God was never a FATHER in the OT until the day He was begotten! You only become a FATHER when you have a SON. Repeating again ... does this not cancel out the so-called eternal coexisting Sonship of the eternal Trinity, creating a huge flaw in its theology, and therefore rendering the Trinity unbiblical and a very subtle way to undermine the divinity of Jesus?
Not really! Okay, Jesus had to be born to become a son. However, this does not rule out Him also being the Son prior. Nor the Son eternally. Being born on earth only fulfills what He already was.
No ... can't! Because, according to your belief system He was only second in rank as the Son under the Father! The order is, as your theology goes ... first, you have the Father (or "God the Father"). Then you have as second in order or command, called "God the Son" (where is this title found in scripture?). Then thirdly, and lastly, you have "God the Holy Spirit" (again, where is this title found in scripture?)! You can't have it both ways! If Jesus was second to the Father, and the Holy Spirit second to Jesus or third to the Father in rank, order and command (whatever word you like to choose), then how can they ALL be coequally one and the same eternally, and one and the same coequally in substance? If Jesus become flesh by leaving heaven, going below the angels and was born of sinful man; how can he be the same coequally in substance? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, is what the word says. Flesh simply cannot be spirit. Therefore, the Son and the Spirit, as two different people (as your tradition says) can never be the same substance.
Secondly, if there had to be a day before God could say in regards to Jesus (or else He would never have said this prophetically), "I will (future tense) be to him a Father, and he shall (future tense) be to me a Son?" This is because Jesus was not a Son before! The Word had not become flesh! He had not become the manchild until after being born as flesh and blood. There is simply not a verse in the OT, outside the prophetic, to state or confirm Jesus (while in the Godhead in heaven before leaving for earth) was the Son. The eternal Word? Yes! The eternal Son? No! We can only call Him the Son as the only begotten Son! Meaning, He had to be begotten and conceived first.
I'm sorry, you have not convinced me one bit. If Jesus was not the Son eternally then the majority of Christendom is wrong, as well as the Reformers, and most of the respected and credentialed clergy around today. How can you be right and so many people wrong? I will take what you have said to my Pastor and get his opinion on what you have shared with me. He is a man who has had years of experience in studies in theology and sociology, bible college and ministry, as well as being very accustomed to the Hebrew and the Greek. Furthermore, he is a lot more qualified than you when it comes to Bible history and references, as well as being skilled in handling people and communicating sermons. Not to forget to mention his impeccable character and outstanding integrity within the community in general. You say the Godhead is Jesus, but you have never given reasons why.
"You say the Godhead is Jesus but you have never given reasons why."
Simple!! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain who the Godhead is. First of all let me make myself clear ... the Godhead has got nothing to do with rank in the sense you convey. Meaning, it is not made up of separate deities (or divine Persons) with one person being superior or above the other, like the Father being God and being the first in command in the Godhead, followed by Jesus (His Son) then the Holy Spirit. However, it has got everything to do with order ... Divine order! Remember, God is a God of order! Even this has been undermined by both the secular and religious world of late. Biblically we have parents (as one flesh), then children (their offspring), then beasts (as in animals or the rest of Creation). In the family unit we have the husband, then the wife, followed by the children. Not to forget to mention marriage ... just as man is the head of woman so Christ is the head of man. Do you not see the THREE divine witness (not persons) principle come in here? As far as the true biblical church ... we have the church in the home (Christ communing directly to the head of the home). Then the church in a locality like a town or a city (governed by elders). Finally, the church universal ... the complete Body of Christ around the world, with Christ as HEAD (the Godhead)! Never a human headship; nor ever a triune headship consisting of a three prong/person Godhead.
Now when it comes to the Body of Christ, how many heads does this Body have (just as a family unit or a marriage )? As God is not a God of confusion but order, we have one head of this Body. Who is the head of this church? Simple answer (as just mentioned) ... Christ! As the word is plain and clear ... Eph 5:23.
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
Okay, Christ is the head of the church but who is the head of Christ? You may have dug a hole for yourself here. My turn to give you a verse this time and blow your theory clean out the water ... 1 Cor. 11:3!:
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
So there! Christ is not the ultimate head! God is!
"Christ is not the ultimate head?" Again you are not rightfully dividing the word of truth my friend! You are missing the point of Christ Jesus and His divinity (which is nothing to do with "three divine Persons"). Let me remind you of the fundamental truth of Christianity, the Bible believing doctrine the remnant faith is dependant upon. This is the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the ultimate in revelation in a nutshell ...
Jesus being both God and man!!!
As you know (according to 1 John 4: 2-3), whatever spirit denies this (that Jesus "is come in the flesh" - removed from modern bible versions by the way) is not of God. It says nothing about denying the Trinity, does it?
When scripture speaks of there being one Saviour and "one God, and one mediator between God and men", it is referring to "the man Christ Jesus"! Yes, the man! The only perfect and completely upright man to have walked the earth, who had been born of a woman. Yes, the man Christ Jesus! Moreover, when scripture speaks about "the head of Christ is God" it is referring to God being the head of the man Christ Jesus (our first "big" brother - the man from Galilee). Or God being the head of Jesus as man! The man Christ Jesus!
However, Jesus is more than a man isn't He, as we have just seen? Now take a look at this passage of scripture ... we are rightly dividing now, not just quoting a verse in isolation as Satan did with the man Jesus of Nazareth, when He was tempted as a man in the wilderness. Here we go ... Colossians One again! Where do we begin? Let's take verse 14 down to 18:
"In whom we have redemption through his blood (Jesus), even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist. And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (Jesus) might have the preeminence."
Do you get that! It is He who has the pre-eminence? Who is He? Is it the Father? No! Is it the Holy Ghost? No! Is it Jesus? Yes! Which "is the head of all principality and power"! How many heads does God have? Is it one or does He have multi heads? Scripture says one head! The religious world presents many gods ... many heads! Christendom presents a multi Godhead ... a Trinity of three heads! Don't believe me then look at Christendom's artwork, images and even some of its hymns (you will see them fully documented in this series - click on the links below). Now read this verse ... Acts 17:29:
"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
You know what this means? It means man has his own interpretation of the Godhead (a figment of his own imagination that is) while God reveals His. This is the one God with one head; not a monster or beast with double, triple or multiple heads. Scripture says God has an arm, a face, and a head, does it not? God is one, with one head and one body (His church)! Ecumenicism portrays the body with many heads (over churches and movements - as many voices and faces, but ending up in the same place, somehow).
No, the Body has only one head ... Christ! Or only one Potentate (one sovereign monarch and ruler) ... Christ! Therefore, when the remnant agree with God and go against popular belief and say there is only 'one way', they are now branded as extremists. When God's people stress 'the way is narrow' it is frowned upon. Or when they state 'there is one mediator between God and men', it is ignored. Or when a believer is emphatic that God is indeed "one God" or "God is one" or "God alone", he is branded a "cultist", or a "Oneness" heretic, or a "Jesus Only" apostate, or a "Branhamite", or a misguided "United Pentecostal", and so on.
Whatever name tag or brand is invented for the Bible believer (I only belong to Jesus), the fact of the matter is, Jesus is the ONE door to enter, the ONE table to eat from, and ONE head to come under. Christ is that head! The head of God! Or in other words ... the Godhead!
Then if what you say is true, would it not also mean Jesus is the Father a well as being the Holy Spirit?
Answer me please! Do you believe Jesus is God?
Yes, Jesus as the Word was and is God!
Okay, you admit Jesus is God. Then who is the image of God?
Unequivocally ... It's Jesus! ... 2 Cor. 4:4, Col 1:15, Heb 1:3! Remember, God will not tolerate any other image outside of Himself (Deut. 16:22).
Who is the shape of God?
It's Jesus! ... John 5:37 (which you can't see unless God reveals).
Who is the hand of God?
It's Jesus! ... Is. 59:1 (there is only one Saviour isn't there?).
Who is the arm of God?
It's Jesus ... Is. 40:11 (there is only one Shepherd isn't there?).
Who is the voice of God?
It's Jesus ... Deut 4:33. John 5:37 (who only those with ears will hear). Furthermore, ever heard of a voice without a mouth?
Okay, who is he mouth of God?
It's Jesus ... Matt. 4:4! (He is the Word as already covered). Furthermore, ever heard of a mouth without a face?
Okay, Who is the face of God?
Oh, it's Jesus again! ... Ps 34:16 (remember God was not referred to as Father or Son at this stage). Matt. 18:10 (the Father), 2 Cor. 4:6 (the face of Jesus Christ). God is not two faced is He? He would be if He had more than one head. Have you ever heard of a face without a head?
Okay, lastly, who is the head of God?
Understand this please ... God does not have anyone over Him as head. He is indeed head, period! Moreover, Isaiah (9:6) prophesied of this Mighty God we serve, to be Jesus ... "For unto us a child is born" ... "and his name (the child's name) shall be called" ... "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"! Yes, one Father! One God! One head!
Therefore, as God only has one head, this concludes Jesus is that Godhead ... "For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ... THREE different persons!
No, THREE different Beings do not dwell in Jesus! Jesus is not possessed by two other people other than Himself, is He? Moreover, neither does His followers have THREE different Beings living in them! Do you have THREE different people in you? Or is it as scripture says ... "Christ in you (one person), the hope of glory"?
No ... THREE different WITNESSES (not people) is the correct interpretation as mntioned earlier! But the same Lord nevertheless!
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Deut. 16:22. "Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth."
The Bible only mentions the Godhead singular not Godheads plural. Why would this be?
Following is an exposition of the Bible believer in dialogue with the religionist/nominalist (okay - trinitarian) who thinks he is a Bible believer due to tradition and not due to rightly dividing the word of truth. The religionist/nominalist begins this exchange with this statement:
So you say that the Godhead is Christ. How can the Godhead be Christ when Christ is Jesus, being the Son of God and only a part of the Godhead as the second person out of the three?
Okay, I'll answer your question if you answer me this one: How can Christ have (be) the fulness of the Godhead (as Col. 2:9 says) if he is only confined to one third of the Godhead as the second person? You see you have a real problem when you agree with Christendom's concept that the Godhead is a heavenly triangle/substance thing, made up of three separate people. According to you these three separate 'entities' dwelling as 'one' and 'the same', are 'one God', yet co-eternal keeping the same substance as each other (what ever that means), the same equality, as well as keeping their eternal separate 'identities' as an individual 'being' at the same time.
This does not sound very respectful towards our Lord!
Depends of which image or person you are really serving and beholding. Or whether the likes of James White's book "The Forgotten Trinity" causes you to puke or go all gogo gaga over. The crux of the matter is ... You say this person/entity is God (God the Son), just like the first and other person/entity is also God (God the Father) and the third and equal other person/entity is also God (God the Spirit), while at the same time they are all God combined as one. Meaning, it is right both ways in saying God is one person or God is three persons. Right!? Or even, "the three divine Persons" (look up "The Forgotten Trinity"). As long as you don't say this Person is three Gods, even though this Person (the person of God) can also be three individual and distinct persons. Moreover ... "the three divine Persons". Or broken down:
One Person (God) is also three (distinct and different) persons (God)!
Or ...
The true and only one God can be either three persons or one Person, but never three Gods ("three divine Persons" are okay, apparently), even though each person equates as God or the three persons combined together, equates as God!
Yes! I know it is complex and hard to grasp but this is a divine mystery!
The only illustration and line fitting to me I can think of at present is in story "the Three Musketeers" ... "all for one and one for all!" Understanding, I am not trying to be flippant towards the Lord God our Creator and Saviour in any way, but only false doctrine!
Does this not mean there are three Beings, each with the title of God together, but never as the title as God as an individual ... even though they can each be called God as an individual, somehow equating to God as three? Bearing in mind (and this is the best illustration I can think of for logic sake) "the Three Musketeers" were always three, but could never be solely, one individual person/personality together, even though they could function as one together.
In other words, to spell it out in clearer speech and to categorize what you believe:
Each person in the Godhead can be titled God ... God the Father (the 1st Person), God the Son (the 2nd other Person), and God the Holy Spirit (the 3rd other Person). That's 1+1+1 = THREE! Simple arithmetic ... yes! With each called God! Right?
However, though each separate person is titled God they cannot be termed THREE Gods for some reason! THREE divine Persons! Yes, but not Gods! THREE persons (as God), THREE entities (as God), THREE beings (as God), THREE individuals (as God), THREE distinct personalities (as God) ... yes! But NEVER THREE Gods!
Can you work that one out?
No one can! The Trinity can't be explained! As I say, the Godhead is a mystery!
Oh yeah! Your theology and tradition may dictate this, but it is contrary to scripture nevertheless. This is what is written ... Romans 1: 21-22:
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (thatz us!), even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (the disbelievers, skeptics and brushover artists) are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God (they glorified the one "God alone" as more than one and not alone)".
You see, this verse claims "when they new God" (even his eternal power and Godhead) "they glorified him not as God. The Godhead got very distorted and complicated somehow. This is certainly not rocket science, nor philological complexity, nor something that is hidden for all time. Apart from the special, privileged, enlightened "initiated"! Is it? Nor is it an open-ended God, with interpretation dependant on your theology or tradition.
Furthermore, whattabout this one; which wipes out your "unexplained" theory in one fell swoop ... Eph. 3: 3-6:
"How that by revelation he made known unto me (a 'born again' believer) the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit".
Did you know the biblical phrase above "made known" is mentioned 20 times throughout the whole Bible? "Made known"! God will never do this unless He reveals Himself to those who truly seek Him in all humility (those who admit they are wrong while God is aways right). After all, a mystery in scripture is only a mystery to the unbelieving world (not a puzzle or an unexplained phenomena, like the Trinity doctrine), but is revealed unto those in Him ... 1 Cor. 10: 9-10:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."
This means "the deep things of God" are not out of our reach if we are prepared to seek Him with our whole heart and give up our "justified" theory, "approved" opinion or what the religious experts have convinced us to believe, because they would NEVER deceive us (would they?). No, the deep things of God are not a mystery once He reveals them unto us, His remnant, which He has promised to do.
Revelation is the name of the game! Not second-hand information, or flogged tradition, dressed up to look Biblical coz the "trusted" Reformers, the "highly educated", or the religious mainstream says it to be so. Meaning, there is no puzzle or unexplained cryptic hidden messages with God. Only the mystery hidden from fallen man throughout the ages, until the time was ready for God to make it known to those who would call out to Him, love Him, and obey Him. Amos 3:7 does not say this in vain ...
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
If the Trinity is a secret or mystery, or has an unfathomable meaning, or a cryptic hidden message that can never be explained, as you and your cronies endorse, then it simply can never be revealed or made known? I suggest you seek out the God who Daniel 2:47 says is ... "a revealer of secrets"!
I never said "can't be revealed" but "can't be explained"! There is a difference!
Then define it please?
Okay ... "Three separate people all called God individually, but never as three Gods, but God as one!"
This is double-de-dutch talk to me my friend! Religious mumbo jumbo at best! Two-forked-tongue stuff! Somehow we are NEVER to say "They" (the Three divine Persons) are three Gods (as admitted by your peers and depicted in Christendom's art and relics, never to be renounced by Evangelical Protestantism or the "Christian" mainstream). Your doctrine is stating ... just say they are God when and only when, together, functioning as this so-called Godhead, that is also officially known as (not scripturally known as), and called the Trinity.
Here is another major problem (which one can never get his head around, if you are willing to question the unquestionable, and be labelled "cultist", or "dissenter", or "division maker") if you really want to rightly divide the word (coz according to Christendom, denying the Holy Trinity is one of the proofs you are a cultist) and take the word for what it is. That is, use scripture to measure and balance scripture ... not just isolate one verse to prove a point.
What do you mean by that?
Okay, according to you (because of your religious upbringing, or indoctrination into a denomination) ... the Godhead consists of three eternal, separate, yet equal and unwavering in substance, co-being, existing inside an eternal triangle in heaven. Right?
Urrrr ... Yes! Urrrr ... No, not really! The Godhead is the correct term!
Okay ... here is the universal points of belief when it comes to "the Holy Trinity" doctrine:
Co-eternalDoes this line up with your belief system?
Co-equal
Co-equal in substance
Co-inseparable
Of course!
Then you tell me 'the second part' of this spiritual equilateral triangle in heaven is sent to earth as the Son. Yes, He came as the Son! As according to your teaching, He is already a son (or the Son) because you say He has already been a son, is a son, and will always be a son ... the eternal Son of God!
Therefore, if Jesus is really the second person, eternally as the Son (before being begotten or born a man) then pray tell me, how can there still be three separate and equal beings/persons/people/individuals, of equal eternal substance, when there is now only two ... God the Father and God the Holy Spirit residing in heaven? That's because (according to your teaching) 'God the Son' has now become a manchild, who will soon mature past being a manchild (the manchild) into a man! Therefore, how can they (the three in heaven) be co-inseparable if one calls out as a man dying nailed to a tree to His "Superior" in Heaven, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," if this was true? Where can good'ole common sense come out of this?
Because Jesus is still in the Godhead in Spirit!
You mean there is now two Spirits making up God? ... Jesus the Spirit as well as God the Holy Spirit?
No, they are one and the same!
One and the same eh! Can't be I'm afraid! As according to your doctrine, they are two separate people (persons) and one of these people has just left heaven (His abiding place with the other two members of the Godhead) and come to earth as a man. I think we both agree and know very well that Jesus is the eternal Word which become flesh (which I say still contradicts the Trinity and does not mean Son). Therefore, how can this eternal Son you keep mentioning, now be still the same substance, equally and eternally as the other two, if this substance has now become flesh and blood? Meaning, the Son has now left heaven to come to earth, leaving this Godhead only occupied with two other divine beings (a Godhead consisting of only Two divine persons now, by the way)? Remembering also, that as the Son, He becomes cut-off and experiences a separation through death from the other two members you insist exist. Meaning, there is only now two divine persons living or existing at this stage? Basically now saying ... all three are not co eternal and eternally equal! Eternally equal ... that iz!!
The Son simply can't be of the same substance. Especially when He is executed as a flesh and blood man and is now a temporary dead and cut-off substance! Bearing in mind, He has been a flesh and blood substance for 33 years prior, born of a woman and born of sinful flesh, as the scriptures say. Remember, the other two members of the so-called Godhead have never experienced this change or temporary condition!
Therefore, they (the eternal three) simply can't be coequal eternally in SUBSTANCE, can they? Especially when God the Father is confined to heaven and God the Holy Spirit (the third in rank in this so-called Godhead) can come and go as the wind and be omnipresent, while God the Son can come to earth being restricted as a man for 33 years, separated from the Godhead and being temporally separated as "cut-off out of the land of the living" for three days and three nights! Meaning, if the eternal Trinity does happen to exist, it ceased to exist for either 33 years at best, or three days at worst, cancelling out the Trinity being eternal or always equally of the same substance. Just can't be! You only need a small time gap frame of just one of the three (when He is cut-off from the other Two) t o rule out being always equally eternal! Or always equally and eternally, one is substance. Flesh and blood is not equally and eternally one in substance with spirit, which God is!
They can be in Spirit!
As I said, they simply can't be, as one has left His place in heaven, become lower than the angels, and is made FLESH and BLOOD, not Spirit. If the Spirit of God is a different person than Jesus, then Jesus is not the same coequally and eternally in substance as the third member of this Triune "Godhead" but a different individual on earth. Also, rank or position of power (as second in charge or order) cancels out equality in this case, does it not? What does scripture say and how can you refute this?:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
There's a major contradiction in your theology here, as elsewhere as I will explain! Besides, and while we have reached this point ... has not this second person you refer to, only now become a son, or the Son? Is not it a principle in scripture that a son can only be a son after being conceived? When did Jesus become a Son? It is clear from scripture that there was a day when He did. This was prophesied in the OT and fulfilled in the NT, ruling out Jesus always being a Son, and therefore destroying the tradition that Jesus was a Son prior to being begotten, conceived and born. Here's the OT prediction (meaning the Son was to come, not always was) ... Psalms 2:7:
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
"Thou art my Son; (because) this day have I begotten thee"! As Jesus was begotten, no doubt on this day He become the Son. Fulfilled in the NT ... Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5, as well as Hebrews 5:5 (three biblical witnesses/accounts confirming the truth):
"Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."
Why His Son? Because He was begotten on that day! There had to be a day. Followed by this statement which could now be made a reality:
"I will (future tense) be to him a Father, and he shall (future tense) be to me a Son?"
This never happened before. Meaning, Jesus could not have been a Son to the Father before, as God could not be called Father before. The NT always spoke of "the promise of the Father". Why? Because God was never a FATHER in the OT until the day He was begotten! You only become a FATHER when you have a SON. Repeating again ... does this not cancel out the so-called eternal coexisting Sonship of the eternal Trinity, creating a huge flaw in its theology, and therefore rendering the Trinity unbiblical and a very subtle way to undermine the divinity of Jesus?
Not really! Okay, Jesus had to be born to become a son. However, this does not rule out Him also being the Son prior. Nor the Son eternally. Being born on earth only fulfills what He already was.
No ... can't! Because, according to your belief system He was only second in rank as the Son under the Father! The order is, as your theology goes ... first, you have the Father (or "God the Father"). Then you have as second in order or command, called "God the Son" (where is this title found in scripture?). Then thirdly, and lastly, you have "God the Holy Spirit" (again, where is this title found in scripture?)! You can't have it both ways! If Jesus was second to the Father, and the Holy Spirit second to Jesus or third to the Father in rank, order and command (whatever word you like to choose), then how can they ALL be coequally one and the same eternally, and one and the same coequally in substance? If Jesus become flesh by leaving heaven, going below the angels and was born of sinful man; how can he be the same coequally in substance? That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, is what the word says. Flesh simply cannot be spirit. Therefore, the Son and the Spirit, as two different people (as your tradition says) can never be the same substance.
Secondly, if there had to be a day before God could say in regards to Jesus (or else He would never have said this prophetically), "I will (future tense) be to him a Father, and he shall (future tense) be to me a Son?" This is because Jesus was not a Son before! The Word had not become flesh! He had not become the manchild until after being born as flesh and blood. There is simply not a verse in the OT, outside the prophetic, to state or confirm Jesus (while in the Godhead in heaven before leaving for earth) was the Son. The eternal Word? Yes! The eternal Son? No! We can only call Him the Son as the only begotten Son! Meaning, He had to be begotten and conceived first.
I'm sorry, you have not convinced me one bit. If Jesus was not the Son eternally then the majority of Christendom is wrong, as well as the Reformers, and most of the respected and credentialed clergy around today. How can you be right and so many people wrong? I will take what you have said to my Pastor and get his opinion on what you have shared with me. He is a man who has had years of experience in studies in theology and sociology, bible college and ministry, as well as being very accustomed to the Hebrew and the Greek. Furthermore, he is a lot more qualified than you when it comes to Bible history and references, as well as being skilled in handling people and communicating sermons. Not to forget to mention his impeccable character and outstanding integrity within the community in general. You say the Godhead is Jesus, but you have never given reasons why.
"You say the Godhead is Jesus but you have never given reasons why."
Simple!! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain who the Godhead is. First of all let me make myself clear ... the Godhead has got nothing to do with rank in the sense you convey. Meaning, it is not made up of separate deities (or divine Persons) with one person being superior or above the other, like the Father being God and being the first in command in the Godhead, followed by Jesus (His Son) then the Holy Spirit. However, it has got everything to do with order ... Divine order! Remember, God is a God of order! Even this has been undermined by both the secular and religious world of late. Biblically we have parents (as one flesh), then children (their offspring), then beasts (as in animals or the rest of Creation). In the family unit we have the husband, then the wife, followed by the children. Not to forget to mention marriage ... just as man is the head of woman so Christ is the head of man. Do you not see the THREE divine witness (not persons) principle come in here? As far as the true biblical church ... we have the church in the home (Christ communing directly to the head of the home). Then the church in a locality like a town or a city (governed by elders). Finally, the church universal ... the complete Body of Christ around the world, with Christ as HEAD (the Godhead)! Never a human headship; nor ever a triune headship consisting of a three prong/person Godhead.
Now when it comes to the Body of Christ, how many heads does this Body have (just as a family unit or a marriage )? As God is not a God of confusion but order, we have one head of this Body. Who is the head of this church? Simple answer (as just mentioned) ... Christ! As the word is plain and clear ... Eph 5:23.
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body."
Okay, Christ is the head of the church but who is the head of Christ? You may have dug a hole for yourself here. My turn to give you a verse this time and blow your theory clean out the water ... 1 Cor. 11:3!:
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
So there! Christ is not the ultimate head! God is!
"Christ is not the ultimate head?" Again you are not rightfully dividing the word of truth my friend! You are missing the point of Christ Jesus and His divinity (which is nothing to do with "three divine Persons"). Let me remind you of the fundamental truth of Christianity, the Bible believing doctrine the remnant faith is dependant upon. This is the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the ultimate in revelation in a nutshell ...
Jesus being both God and man!!!
As you know (according to 1 John 4: 2-3), whatever spirit denies this (that Jesus "is come in the flesh" - removed from modern bible versions by the way) is not of God. It says nothing about denying the Trinity, does it?
When scripture speaks of there being one Saviour and "one God, and one mediator between God and men", it is referring to "the man Christ Jesus"! Yes, the man! The only perfect and completely upright man to have walked the earth, who had been born of a woman. Yes, the man Christ Jesus! Moreover, when scripture speaks about "the head of Christ is God" it is referring to God being the head of the man Christ Jesus (our first "big" brother - the man from Galilee). Or God being the head of Jesus as man! The man Christ Jesus!
However, Jesus is more than a man isn't He, as we have just seen? Now take a look at this passage of scripture ... we are rightly dividing now, not just quoting a verse in isolation as Satan did with the man Jesus of Nazareth, when He was tempted as a man in the wilderness. Here we go ... Colossians One again! Where do we begin? Let's take verse 14 down to 18:
"In whom we have redemption through his blood (Jesus), even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist. And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he (Jesus) might have the preeminence."
Do you get that! It is He who has the pre-eminence? Who is He? Is it the Father? No! Is it the Holy Ghost? No! Is it Jesus? Yes! Which "is the head of all principality and power"! How many heads does God have? Is it one or does He have multi heads? Scripture says one head! The religious world presents many gods ... many heads! Christendom presents a multi Godhead ... a Trinity of three heads! Don't believe me then look at Christendom's artwork, images and even some of its hymns (you will see them fully documented in this series - click on the links below). Now read this verse ... Acts 17:29:
"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."
You know what this means? It means man has his own interpretation of the Godhead (a figment of his own imagination that is) while God reveals His. This is the one God with one head; not a monster or beast with double, triple or multiple heads. Scripture says God has an arm, a face, and a head, does it not? God is one, with one head and one body (His church)! Ecumenicism portrays the body with many heads (over churches and movements - as many voices and faces, but ending up in the same place, somehow).
No, the Body has only one head ... Christ! Or only one Potentate (one sovereign monarch and ruler) ... Christ! Therefore, when the remnant agree with God and go against popular belief and say there is only 'one way', they are now branded as extremists. When God's people stress 'the way is narrow' it is frowned upon. Or when they state 'there is one mediator between God and men', it is ignored. Or when a believer is emphatic that God is indeed "one God" or "God is one" or "God alone", he is branded a "cultist", or a "Oneness" heretic, or a "Jesus Only" apostate, or a "Branhamite", or a misguided "United Pentecostal", and so on.
Whatever name tag or brand is invented for the Bible believer (I only belong to Jesus), the fact of the matter is, Jesus is the ONE door to enter, the ONE table to eat from, and ONE head to come under. Christ is that head! The head of God! Or in other words ... the Godhead!
Then if what you say is true, would it not also mean Jesus is the Father a well as being the Holy Spirit?
Answer me please! Do you believe Jesus is God?
Yes, Jesus as the Word was and is God!
Okay, you admit Jesus is God. Then who is the image of God?
Unequivocally ... It's Jesus! ... 2 Cor. 4:4, Col 1:15, Heb 1:3! Remember, God will not tolerate any other image outside of Himself (Deut. 16:22).
Who is the shape of God?
It's Jesus! ... John 5:37 (which you can't see unless God reveals).
Who is the hand of God?
It's Jesus! ... Is. 59:1 (there is only one Saviour isn't there?).
Who is the arm of God?
It's Jesus ... Is. 40:11 (there is only one Shepherd isn't there?).
Who is the voice of God?
It's Jesus ... Deut 4:33. John 5:37 (who only those with ears will hear). Furthermore, ever heard of a voice without a mouth?
Okay, who is he mouth of God?
It's Jesus ... Matt. 4:4! (He is the Word as already covered). Furthermore, ever heard of a mouth without a face?
Okay, Who is the face of God?
Oh, it's Jesus again! ... Ps 34:16 (remember God was not referred to as Father or Son at this stage). Matt. 18:10 (the Father), 2 Cor. 4:6 (the face of Jesus Christ). God is not two faced is He? He would be if He had more than one head. Have you ever heard of a face without a head?
Okay, lastly, who is the head of God?
Understand this please ... God does not have anyone over Him as head. He is indeed head, period! Moreover, Isaiah (9:6) prophesied of this Mighty God we serve, to be Jesus ... "For unto us a child is born" ... "and his name (the child's name) shall be called" ... "The mighty God, The everlasting Father"! Yes, one Father! One God! One head!
Therefore, as God only has one head, this concludes Jesus is that Godhead ... "For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ... THREE different persons!
No, THREE different Beings do not dwell in Jesus! Jesus is not possessed by two other people other than Himself, is He? Moreover, neither does His followers have THREE different Beings living in them! Do you have THREE different people in you? Or is it as scripture says ... "Christ in you (one person), the hope of glory"?
No ... THREE different WITNESSES (not people) is the correct interpretation as mntioned earlier! But the same Lord nevertheless!
To the only
wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
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Deut. 16:22. "Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth."
Acts 17:29. "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we
ought
not to think that the
Godhead is like unto gold,
or silver, or stone, graven by art (see
Christendom's
depiction's) and man's device (liturgy, dogma, creed, articles of
faith, religion, ritual, theology,
philosophy, imagery, icons, tradition, ceremony)
The Whole Trinity Series:
Introduction to the Three Divine Persons
The Threefold Witness of Jesus
The Eternal Word and the Begotten Son
Jesus - God and Man
The Traditional Trinity - vs - The Biblical Godhead
The LORD and the Lord
"Behold the Man" - The Fulness of God
The Satanic Trinity in Progress
Another Pilgrim - Without the Camp
Jesus
Introduction to the Three Divine Persons
The Threefold Witness of Jesus
The Eternal Word and the Begotten Son
Jesus - God and Man
The Traditional Trinity - vs - The Biblical Godhead
The LORD and the Lord
"Behold the Man" - The Fulness of God
The Satanic Trinity in Progress
Another Pilgrim - Without the Camp
Jesus